So before you, you know, found our videos or or boot camp, what was your learning journey like? Because a lot of people start with, you know, let let me see what this DevOps is all about. Like, what what do I need to learn? You know, and then you see all these tools that that are part of DevOps, and you start learning, okay, let me let me learn a little bit of Docker, little bit of Kubernetes, and then they get confused because, you know, do I tie all this? Did you do the same thing, like watch a few videos and tutorials Yeah. Or read some blog articles? Yeah. Exactly. I did the same thing. So basically, was like, okay. Let me let me write down the list of the of the DevOps tools that are mostly used in the in the in the in the big companies. So I learned, let's say, from from Udemy. I basically... Or or or YouTube, would go, okay. Let's go to the GitLab. I was learning GitLab. Then I switched to to have a look at Jenkins, then a little bit about, I don't know, Python, Docker, and and the rest of the tools. But it... There's a... It it did... I haven't built anything because all of those tools weren't... Of those tutorials and and courses on Udemy, they weren't... The the... I actually haven't built anything with them. I I I were just aware that, okay, GitLab, we use for this. Jenkins is similar, but it can also work for for on prem. It's old, but many companies use it. Docker is for for image generation. So it was like, no. It's very difficult to to to to explain this, but it's, like, learning bits and pieces to be prepared to to build something. So it prepared me somehow for the boot camp to build something finally, but it didn't give me the... This knowledge that would help me during the interview. Because during the interview, they they actually didn't ask me, okay, what is the Terraform? What is GitLab? What can you do in GitLab? But they asked me specifically, what can you build? We have this this pipeline. How would you correlate Terraform with Terraground, with GitLab, with AWS? So, yeah, it's it's it's it's good to to to know... It's good to go through the tutorials only for GitLab, but Yeah. The the whole knowledge comes when you actually combine those tools and build something and you spend hours on troubleshooting the whole Yeah. Scenario of producing something. Yeah. So why did you decide to join demos boot camp? Or how how long after you have been doing all these Udemy courses and YouTube videos and trying to learn, like, bits and pieces from everywhere? So I think it was around maybe one one year. I was trying to do it myself. And while while managing full time jobs. So, obviously, it it was harder. Yeah. And after one year, I was like, okay. I don't have this structured learning. Everything is is breaking. I'm not able to to actually build anything because out of hours, let's say, I I set up some some infrastructure in AWS. I come back to it in a in a two weeks because, I don't know, one weekend I need to I had to go to visit my friends or or go to visit my family. And once I'm back after two weeks, something has changed, something stopped working, and I was getting annoyed by it. And I was like, okay. I need to find some actually structural learning that would help me to go step by step. And this is when I when I saw your boot camp, and I was like, okay. Structural learning, this is for me. I mean, it was expensive for me at the... At that time, obviously. But I was like, okay. If it's structural learning, this is what I'm looking for. And, actually, people nowadays, I think they are looking for... If they want to join a boot camp, that they Yeah. They they want to have this structural learning from somebody who has done it before, spent hours building this, figuring out. But now it's working for you so you can learn it faster than than him or herself. Right? So how did you do the boot camp? So you had a full time job, you so had to kind of find time somehow to curve out time during the week to also do the boot camp because especially later in the boot camp, the projects become a little bit more intensive, so you have to have the full context, so to say, to, you know, start building the project and then kinda build step by step on top of it. So did you go from beginning to the end? Did you pick specific modules? How many hours in a week did you dedicate? Yeah. This time, I learned from my mistakes, and I just started from from chapter zero, and I was going just step by step. If I if I didn't get anything at at the first time, I would just spend more hours on it to to understand the topic, and then I would move on. So I didn't really care how how long it will take me, but I wanted to have this full full project fully working, understand every every piece of it, and then I can I can just apply for the role to to to be the job ready? Yeah. So, initially, let's say, before I found Bootcamp, it was... I did Udemy courses, but yeah, they just touched upon one topic that I had yet to find an actual Udemy course that explains what I... You had obviously something in the cloud. Yeah. For example, Terraform, but other than that, it wasn't really like an an actual mix. So first I tried those things, but then in reality, because the the different companies that I worked with and friends that I have, colleagues that I have, they all said, yeah, it's much more than that. It's like, yeah, it is InSible to configure it, there's Terraform to to to make the actual environment. So all these things are interconnected, and, yeah, that was for me also more of a trigger, let's say, to to look for something else that touched upon these topics. I heard from friends and colleagues. Yeah. And actually, after doing these, yeah, separate courses, let's say, I finished them, so I got and obtained more knowledge. Yeah. When I started to boot camp from, let's say, I think it was chapter eight or nine where we did Kubernetes, that's where it actually for me, even though that I already did Kubernetes together with the senior engineer It was really difficult to comprehend in the beginning for me to to really understand, okay, what am I actually doing? What do I actually Yeah. Do? And those topics I just reiterated like many times. So I also told you that I got a daughter, and that also stopped me during the the process, let's say, to to to keep learning. So every time Yeah. Even though it was inconvenient, I needed to start again. But actually, that part actually helped me to really grasp the concepts and really Yeah. Buy it. So when you did this isolated course... Because this is also probably our biggest USP, like, ever, and that was, like, extremely important for me because I learned DevOps from zero, right, at some point. So I I tried to imagine myself in the shoes of someone who is trying to do the same. So when you did, like, an isolated... Did you do Terraform or Kubernetes? Okay. So so when you did when you did Terraform course on Udemy, you clearly felt like, okay. I did learn something. Like, I know a little bit of syntax. I know how to actually use it and, you know, create some projects in automated way. Like, did you feel like the knowledge was missing, or was it really the feedback from your colleagues? Or was it was it the gap that you were seeing at work? Like, you couldn't actually implement it, for the actual work that that you needed to do, or what what was the gap like? Like, what was... What were you actually missing in terms of knowledge? Good question. I think for me, what what I learned this since I can start, but, yeah, you still need to configure the environment. So then also, well, you can do it, but it's not the nicest way. Also, that's something what my colleague said. So then Ansible's already missing, and based on the jobs that I did, so to rewind a little bit Yeah. Yeah. The the job that I had where Kubernetes cluster was implemented, that was my last pay whole job, let's say. Yeah. And before that, worked in a company that really was definitely minded. So I already saw how it worked there. So I already thought, hey, okay, if there they used... 90% of what you used in the boot camp, so based on that information, I knew already, hey, there's so much more than just TerraForm and AWS to go with. Also, yeah, took me a little bit further down the line to say, hey. Okay. Can do Terraform. It's very nice, the syntax part, but afterwards, how can I now install actually tools on that environment That's being created. So more like the knowledge that I obtained from the job before the Kubernetes cluster Yeah. It already showed me that, yeah, that was far more, and I need to know far more than just one tool within that stack. So when I joined, I think it's like North Star Security. So I was just working with them, but I was not gaining anything. I was not getting any hands on from from that experience. So after that, I decided to contact a friend of mine who lives in Poland who is working as a DevOps engineer in Capgemini. So he said, okay. He will be interested in, like, helping helping him out to, like... Just like when you shadow somebody who's doing the actual work, just like supporting him and all of that. I said, okay. Let me give it a try. So we started... I started working like that with him, but then I still don't understand, like, how different pieces, you know, connect together and and all of that. So I decided to I decided to buy a course on Udemy, you know, by one India guy's name. I think his name is Emra Telly. He's very popular on Udemy. So I bought his course, DevOps beginners to advance. So I started went... Going through his course. And mind you, during this time, I was actually doing my master's degree in The UK because I actually relocated from Nigeria to The UK. So... Yeah. So I was doing everything at the same time. So I did the DevOps... What's it called? Beginner to... I I finished the course. And after finishing the course, I said to myself, I still don't... Like like... Although I had, like, a little understanding of how DevOps works, but I I couldn't factor in how different tools and the technologies and everything comes together, like, especially on Kubernetes. So I was I was still a little bit confused. So I decided, okay. Let me try and apply for jobs. So I applied for jobs. Nothing was coming in. No interview. Nothing. Nothing. And, you know, at that point, I was really, really frustrated. So what I did was I say, okay. Let me try getting a certification like Kubernetes certification and see if that's gonna help. And that was my first point with your boot camp. So I went through the reviews. Everything looks nice. And One important thing about your course is that it is well structured. Like, I went through the the map and everything, well structured, nice, and all the high in demand tools at that time we are there, like Terraform, Kubernetes, Asiboo, everything was just there. Said, okay. Yeah. Actually, that's good. So my thought process was... Like, the first thing I did was when I went through the road map, I saw all the tools. And then when I compare it to most of the job descriptions, like jobs and everything, everything matches, especially the Terraform, the Kubernetes, the Ansible, and AWS. And those, you know, highly... Those were high in demand as of then, you know, in The UK. And when I saw it, I said, I I I think, you know, I think it's... The investment is actually worth it. Like, you know, when I also compared to the salary, like, the salary that I'm seeing for DevOps, even for a junior DevOps engineer, salary is way more than, you know, some senior professionals in some other sectors. So I said, okay. I think it's... It is worth me trying this. And plus, when you also go through the road map, I think you also attach a video to explain what that module is all about and all of that. And the most... The other thing that actually struck me was how, like, after each module, you try to integrate all the tools together. Like, if you if you did, like, Terraform and Kubernetes, you try to see how you can measure from Kubernetes together and also with Ansible, like, trying to integrate all its tools and technology together. And that was what I was really missing in my previous one where we are... I was studying all the tools in isolation. Like, I will learn Ansible, learn Terraform, and thereabout. But now... But I realized that in the real world, we're not just using these tools in isolation. Right? We are actually using all of that together, like integrated them to build systems, to, you know, build pipelines, you know, infrastructures, and those kind of stuff. So that was actually a selling point as well. Like, that point actually struck me like every tools and everything together. So at that point, I said, okay. I think this investment is worth it. Like, I I I don't mind spending my money, you know, on this investment. If I can spend my money on other stuff that are not relevant, like going to the stadium to watch football matches, like £100, you know, and all of that to watch, like... I mean, my... I'm a United fan. So going to the stadium to watch football matches, if I can do that for my own pleasure, why can't I invest something that is going to set me up for life? And that's what I always tell people that I don't mind sacrificing six months in a year or even a year to learn something that's gonna benefit me all through my life, that's gonna give me that stepping stone, that's gonna give me that leverage. And that is... That was exactly what I did. I decided to sacrifice even if it's six months. Mind you, I was also doing my master's degree, and my visa is also running, you know, running to, like, almost finishing and all of that. Okay. Interesting. So you basically have this infrastructure provision by Terraform, and then you were like, okay. I need to install stuff on it, and Terraform is kinda where where it stops. So I need to learn Ansible or some type of automation to to continue with that. And you also mentioned that you, so it's interesting because you're not only using these courses, but you actually have work environment and colleagues who are DevOps engineers where you're, you know, working on these projects, and you have exposure to Kubernetes. So what was, and and I think this is also an interesting side because you're working with Kubernetes. You have... You know, you you have colleagues who probably configure it and administer the cluster and kinda show you, how it works. What was missing from the practical work experience? Like, you know, you have the course, you have the the practical lab, so to say, at work. So what was difficult or what was the knowledge gap that you had from actually working with the cluster that you had to somehow fill in with, either theoretical knowledge or some hands on practice outside the work? But do you mean that as the company that I work for Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Darren was, like, the senior engineer. He really taught me a lot, like, of practices. We did a lot with Helm, but still, yeah, I that knowledge was missing because, yeah, if someone does it next to you, that's very nice. And you can see, oh, hey. He does it like this because a, b, or c. Yeah. Actual hands on experience is different. So then on working time, we did first with with Helm. We did some things to, for example, set up... Was it... Yeah. Well, definite acceptance cluster and well, obviously, like the values and variables. But then I wanted to get a little bit more hands on, so he showed me, hey, you can also remove environments like this and add codes like this. So that hands on experience showed me something from Kubernetes, let's say, 10%, but that really triggered me to say, hey, okay, this is really interesting because I don't know, but I see what it can do because what he did it like very very fast and very easy. But that actually, like, was for me a trigger to say, okay, I need to get more hands on experience. Yeah. Really one of the things that I thought, okay, need to do something with Kubernetes. But also then, I also looked at Unity for a Uni course for Kubernetes. And it was fine, but it's really difficult for me to see, let's say, whole picture and I At least from my QA perspective, I tried to think always, like, as a high level for how could I Yep. Realize something like this, and then I didn't really grasp it. So that's something that I felt like, yeah, I need to get more in-depth knowledge about how these tools work together. Where, yeah, computer science doesn't cover, you know, because it's so broad Yeah. Yeah, tech that, computer science is really the foundation and doesn't cover many professions. So you have to really study by yourself or with a boot camp, you know, or through experience. And, yeah, if you manage to get a good program, you know, like your boot camp that has everything, you know, like, they prepare the theory, they prepare you to have a very strong portfolio, and they prepare you for the interviews, then, yeah, you can... With that, you can really manage to find your first job in the industry. And then, yeah, then it's, yeah, grabbing experience, you know, from from your job, maybe getting deeper with or studying cloud certifications, you know, if you want to get deeper in some area. And how long did it take in total to complete the boot camp? To complete the boot camp, maybe... I think more than than six months. I think it it... It's supposed to be completed in six months, but for me, it took, like, eight. Yeah. That's... I mean, comparing to one year of studying, like, bits and pieces Yeah. It's still, like, six to eight month is It it sounds a lot, but if you can benefit from it for years down the line, especially without having any missing gaps, then it's a good... It's like university but condensed, so to say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say that people people underestimate, you know, what they can do in six months, you know, with intentional focus, yeah, with a goal. Yeah. I I like that. I really like that. So intentional... Being intentional with your, targets and do not... Because especially in dev ops, like, everything feels overwhelming. Like, you know, when you when you even look at the curriculum, it's like, oh my god. Like, there's so much to learn. But if you take it in bite sized pieces, right, just do it consistently step by step. And I love your advice of, like, just audit your day and see, like, you... You're probably gonna find a few hours, in a week where you can learn. And then being intentional about it instead of just kinda being overwhelmed and and and kinda drifting along. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And also, I think that also it's important to choose a good program because what happens is that in DevOps, it's quite overwhelming because you can find information from very different sources. But if you manage to find a real good program, you know, that has everything that you need, like your boot camp, also, you save a lot of time. You know? Otherwise, you have to maybe watch four different courses, hundreds of YouTube videos, and you will learn as well, but you will probably waste more time, you know Yeah. For the same, yeah, outcome. Yep. Thanks for that, input, by the way. Thanks for that feedback. I'm happy that you found our program and that our program found you, but that's exactly why we even exist, like, why our company has has been existing and actually seeing the demand from the market for so many years. And and we're seeing no decline in that because we... Like, very clearly, there is a demand for people to learn this in a structured way because otherwise, they either waste time or they lose a lot of time and month, which then again, you know, is deducted from... You know, you could be in your career six months further if you actually save those six months now. Right. So, yeah, thanks thanks for that feedback. Yeah. And I think also it's demotivating probably. You know, if you are spending a lot of time and not seeing, like, a clear progress. You know? Yeah. It can be demotivating and... Yeah. And maybe you are tempted to give up. But, yeah, if you have, like, a a goal, you know, like, you you want this certification, you know, or you want to complete this boot camp or complete this project, something tangible, it's easier, I think, to stick to a plan. Yeah. I want you, in your own words, to address someone who is in the same position as you were before landing your your current lead engineer job. So let's say someone, they don't have that same mental clarity as you do, but they want to get into IT and they're hesitating and thinking about it. Like, what would you tell them? Like, give me, like, tangible practical advice that someone in that position would hear to motivate them to to get to the same level that you are now? Okay. The first thing I would tell anybody is do not chase after certifications at the first time because chasing after certification most times just keep people in a loop like watching tutorials. And also, most of the certification we see out there are just like multiple choice question like Terraform, you just need to click. Even the solution architect by AWS is just like, you know, multiple choice question where you need to click a and b. I I will advise them to go hands on, you know, understanding what you are doing, not just chasing certifications because at the end of the day, certification is not going to is not going to get through past the door. Right? It can be attractive, but I think in 2025, as it is currently in the market, your certification is more or less useless if you don't have the skills. And secondly, you need to get a structured path for yourself. Now it is very easy for you to get distracted by just learning tools and all of that. And sometimes when you come on LinkedIn, you see people posting different kinds of tools. It is very easy for you to be overwhelmed if you don't have like a structured path, like something that you need to follow, you know, just make sure you follow it strictly. So my second advice is that get a road map, get a structure path, make sure you are you are following that, you know you know, following that. And thirdly, you need to put whatever you are learning into practice. So instead of you learning stuff in isolation, learning Terraform and all of that, even if if even if you have just one project and you are able to build you build that project using these tools like CICD pipeline, Terraform to provision infrastructures, you know, Kubernetes to deploy your microservices, you know, and all of that. If you can integrate everything into a project, I think that gives you, you know, an idea on how it works practically in the real world. Because in the real world, we are not doing anything in isolation. You can't be doing Ansible on its own. You know, you... Definitely, you'll be using Ansible with some kind of CICD. You can be using Terraform with, you know, CICD. You can be using Kubernetes with HEM, you know, customize those kind of... And tooling. So don't learn anything in isolation. Make sure whatever you are learning, you are trying to integrate them together, you know, use that to beat project. Another one is that don't just focus on learning the tools because as you may see it, if I was tool centric, I was... If I was only focusing on the tool without understanding the concept and the improvement we're trying to solve, that means I wouldn't have even learned my job because I had the... I had the experience with Jenkins and not with GitLab. But the fact that I understood what the concept was all about and the tool was just like a miss to an end, you know, just to, you know, achieve what I wanna achieve. It's just like a make... A mechanic or somebody who is a mechanic that has different tools. And me, who's not a mechanic, if I have a spanner, that does not make me a mechanic. Right? So it comes with the understanding, the concept, understanding what you are trying to solve and not just the toolings and and all of that. So I understood that. So that was the... That... Think I actually gave me confidence sometime when I come online when I see people posting this using different tools. I'm not bothered because, you know, all those are just like tools. They are not the main concept. The main concept company want to see is that, can you build a robust CICD pipeline to cut down, you know, release time from this to that and not just, you know, just learning junkies without understanding what role you are trying to solve.
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